User talk:Jagwar

Fixing mistakes

Hi, Jagwar. I have just seen that your bot added more than 10,000 lemmata recently. Following the cue from the first page of Special:AllPages, I have looked at a few articles: "i", I, je, io and apple. Here are some comments about them:

1. "i": It does not seem to be a valid lemma or an English word at all and it certainly does not mean au (I). The link to au is wrong as it includes a comma.
2. I: The lemma is I, not i. The link to au is wrong as it includes a comma.
3. je: The lemma is je, not i. The link to au is wrong as it includes a comma.
4. io: io]], [[ia, is not a valid lemma as it includes commas. I do not know what io or ia means in Fijian; do they mean the same as io in English? The lemma in Italian is io, not i. The link to au is wrong as it includes a comma.
5. apple: This edit unnecessarily removed most interwiki links and suppressed the Vakadewa-Taka section. It also turned the right link to yapolo into an invalid one by adding a comma. Besides, it added an unnecessary category because the template {{-en-}} already supplies it.

I have just clicked three times in Vakawasoma (random article) and the three articles had links including commas; one of them, звезда had the link [[kalo.kalo]]. It seems that most of your bot's edits have mistakes. I guess the commas issue can be easily corrected with your bot and I would appreciate if you did so but I am not sure how some of the others can be fixed. I would advise you to be careful before making further editions and to proceed step by step. Regards. --87.217.185.116 14:41, 8 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

I have fixed most lemmata I mentioned above. Regards. --87.217.185.116 15:46, 8 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

re : Fixing mistakes

Hello, I'm currently correcting mistakes on all entries of the Fijian Wiktionary (using replace.py). I can not do renaming automatically, but I can already correct broken and mistaken links. About "io" and "ia", both mean "yes" in Fijian. The commas in links were a mistake due to my inattention in writing the script (I forgot to put a condition where there are several possible translations of the same word. I am sincerely sorry for that. --Jagwar 17:41, 8 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the corrections. I have fixed io and ia accordingly and created yes. Regards. --87.217.185.116 00:35, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Systematicity in naming categories

Hi, again. I see that the "Languages" category is duplicated into Category:Vosa and Category:vosa. At the same time, inside the last one, most categories follow a pattern with the exception of Category:Na Vosa Vaka-mandakasikara‎ and Category:Na Vosa Vaka-porotugisi‎, which have the last word spelled in lower case. Regards. --87.217.185.116 15:00, 8 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

List of (some of them possible) mistakes in case you did not notice them

I will list below the mistakes I come across so that, at least, we can locate them. Some may be not mistakes at all but I will mention them anyway just to be on the safe side.

1. I guess you are working on it but I will mention it just in case you did not notice it: after editions like this one, now many links seem to have [[[[ instead just [[. Regards. --87.217.185.116 00:35, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
2. Another kind of mistake in case you did not notice it: there are wrong links with a full stop or a slash between two words. Examples: voli.taka, kalo.kalo and vale/lailai. Regards. --87.217.185.116 00:43, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
3. In эй the bot seems to have replaced every "a" with "эй". Besides, in it there are words in two different scripts: Cyrillic (Russian) and Latin (Spanish & Italian). "a" (Latin) and "а" (Cyrillic) look exactly the same but they have very different Unicode codification so they should be in different pages. --87.217.185.116 01:08, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
4. appelboom in Dutch means "apple" but only in the sense of "apple tree". Do you know if Fijian "yapolo" means "apple tree" besides "apple" (fruit)? --87.217.185.116 01:18, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
5. Promi in German means "star" but only in the sense of "celebrity". Do you know if Fijian "kalo" means "celebrity" besides "star" (cosmic body)? --87.217.185.116 01:18, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
6. In the language categories some denominations seem to have the sequence "nd" (Na Vosa Indi, Mandakasikara) while others lose an "n" (Na Vosa Vaka-Idonesia‎, Tailada‎)‎. Is this right? Where did you get those language denominations in Fijian? --87.217.185.116 01:35, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
7. Some lemmata in German still have links with one or several words, commas and/or full stops: vale, ni, vola.vola, - qele, - kato,, taga,, beki, - fijian, kin, term,. --87.217.185.116 01:49, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
8. Some words like damudamu, lekaleka, yaloka, yaqona, balavu or yadra appear like English words but they are not. Besides, their definition is exactly the same as the lemma, which is not informative. --87.217.185.116 02:18, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)
9. Some articles are clearly wrongly named: cafã©, come back), hit (usually with a stick), mount (v.), vine), a title, wind (n.), trousers (eng.), ambos...e..., whaleã†s tooth, i- meaning, any (a quantity of), answer (v), broken (bone), board (v), blow (wind)... --87.217.185.116 02:18, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

re : List of (some of them possible) mistakes in case you did not notice them

There are the solutions we can do for them :

1. This problem can easily be corrected automatically.
2. Those words were like that when I looked at a Fijian online dictionary.
3. (1) see below
4. In that dictionary the word "yapolo" is for the word "apple". The "apple tree" was on the English wiktionary.
5. I don't know the fijian equivalent for "star". It's maybe the same word...
6. Those language denominations are transcription according the Fijian alphabet.
7. (1) see below
8. (1) see below
9. (1) ← They have to be corrected manually, as I don't see how can we fix them automatically. --Jagwar 15:56, 9 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, Jagwar.

1. Fine. Please do it.

4. & 5. You took the info from here but then you amplified the English translations into more languages. I do not question your good faith but that has entangled many things awfully and, as in the case of "appelboom" and "Promi", you may have added lots of misleading or plainly false information. Let's have a look at another case. According to the link you provided lesu means "return". The first problem we have is this: "return" may be both a verb and an noun and the Fijian dictionary does not provide linguistic categories of the words it contains. Then, if we look at all the words included in fj.wiktionary "meaning lesu", we have, among many others, English back (not a synonym of return at all), French postérieur (adjective, not even related to any "coming back"), Esperanto dorso and Spanish envés (both meaning "the back of a thing") and a probable long etc. It does not look very likely that Fijian lesu means all those things. This is just the first example I have found after less than 1 minute looking so chances are that this kind of inaccuracies and errors are widespread for many of your edits here. Could you please add an automated warning to all the pages you created and/or edited stating that the page was created with a bot and it is not necessarily trustworthy? I or any future editors could remove some of them once they were properly checked or fixed.

6. Then, Indi, Mandakasikara, Idonesia, Tailada, etc are not attested forms in Fijian. And they are not systematic "transcriptions", as you call them, either. Which words (glossonyms?, demonyms?, nations?, etc) are the source? Why Indi and not, for example, Idi, Idia or Varata? Why Indi and not, for example, Indonesia? Why Mandakasikara and not, for example, Macakasikara, Madakasikara, Macaqasikara, Malakasi or Malaqasi? I could go on asking for a long while. If the categories that you created are not backed by documented evidence of usage, they should be labelled with a clear warning stating that they are not attested denominations and they will be replaced once the proper denominations are found.

9. OK, thanks. I'll do the same whenever I come across any similar ones.

I would also appreciate if you did not create any further new entries with your bot from bulk sources unless you are totally sure the outcome will be right. Regards. --87.217.184.204 16:35, 10 Noveba 2011 (UTC) (user 87.217.185.116 with different IP)

I am not currently able and have time to write a program which sorts translations according to their sense. I have already made a quite hard effort to write a program which translates them into other languages. About denonyms and names of languages, I didn't find any translation in Fijian ; so in the case where we lack translation, what should we do? Let names as they are, in English? That makes too anglocentric. To avoid anglocentrism, I make a "transcription" of the language in Fijian (as near as fijian "accent"), and as they are not in dictionaries, they are not attested, obviously. Do you want what are these transcriptions based in? These are based on Malayo-Polynesian accent and I try to fit that accent into Fijian phonology and alphabet. I am Malagasy native speaker and I perfectly know how to proceed, but it's still good to remember that my transcription will never replace a native speaker one.

Do you know in Fijian how to say "This entry may be currently less reliable than the others as it was done by a bot" ? I am respectful enough towards Fijian language and Fijian Wiktionary and will never put an untranslated banner in English language.

Another thing I would like to add about fijian phonology : the d is pronounced in almost all times [nd] which can be also transcribed as nd. So it does not make any difference if you transcribe the [nd] by nd or d. Same thing for the k/q issue : According to the Malagasy pronunciation of Madagasikara it would be better [g], but as for languages who does not have the [g] phoneme (such as Thai, Hindi, Arabic), we change it into [k]. For the choice of the adjective, regularity is preferred, and, like in Indonesian, I preferred Ma[n]dakasikara.

I would also appreciate if you did not create any further new entries with your bot from bulk sources unless you are totally sure the outcome will be right.

I just wanted to help the Fijian Wiktionary to have bilingual dictionary in languages other than English. And as I said before, no one is not yet able to make bot think and guess (maybe except computer science PhDs) what is a good translation and what is not. If you want me to stop creating new "sense-controversed" entries, I will, as I have already finished.

I hope to have replied to most of your questions. Best regards. --Jagwar 17:43, 10 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Hi.

• About the language names. Wikimedia projects are no primary sources so we shouldn't make up denominations even if they are very good guesses. The adding of a warning like the one I mention above should be enough by now.
• I do not know how to say that in Fijian but a warning in English (maybe as well in Hindi if we could get it) would be better than nothing at all. After all English is an official language in the islands.
• Yes, bots (or cars, or pens, etc) do not think. The ones who think are their users. I have never programmed a bot but I have seen them working so I know roughly how bots work. They are wonderful devices for certain things, that is why I would have never used one here in the way you did. Had I used a bot here, I would have just added the English and Fijian words in Geocities and I would have done it in a very careful fashion, i.e., with a previous selection of contents and avoiding anything not clear enough. As I said, I do not question your good intentions but quantity without quality only works with money (and, in the long run, not even with money, we will see it in the coming years or decades). What you did has brought a lot of noise. Some of it is very difficult to deal with and most of it will require a lot of brain-hand effort for future users, so I would appreciate if you added some automated warning in the pages involved. The best thing would be to add it as a template, so that we could categorize it in order to track the potentially conflictive lemmata remaining.

Regards. --87.217.184.204 18:23, 10 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

[reset indent] I agree with you in being careful in adding Word translations into Fijian ; I took a risk to add translations from other wikis. So then as Wikimedia projects are not primary sources, by which name should we replace the language names ? In which language must we take the language names from ? from Hindi ? from English ? from the native names ? And if they use non-latin script ? Would they be understood ?

It is your choice not to use a program to do automatically such things ; and due to what you see in this wiki, I have probably dissuaded you to do that. I am a quite old user here and I know how tiring is to create manually a page. I have started studying algorithmics for over a year and then I start using a bot to automatize some undone tasks. In delegating some tasks to a bot, I was conscient that it might do a thing I didn't expect (error is always human, after all). I really hesitated before, but now it is almost systematical (I have more than 5,000 pages to change each time I launch a new program) and the edit count of my bot, Bot-Jagwar is the tangible proof of that activity : 4 millions edits done in less than two years. You can think whatever you want : you have your own opinions about bots, I have mine.

About future users, they will come : now or later, they will not discourage in having such a number of entries to check : their motivation in helping their language to develop and be represented on the Net will take over. I already did for Malagasy Wikipedia and Wiktionary, so why not : fixing entries is, i.m.h.o easier than creating new ones. Quantity will remain as such, but quality would become better and better as time passes. --Jagwar 20:57, 10 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

No comment. Thanks for adding the bot-entry templates. Will you fix the [[[[ issue and add the not-attested-denomination warning templates in the new language categories with your bot when you have a chance, please? Thanks. Regards. --87.217.184.204 23:56, 10 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the [[[[ issue. Regards. --87.217.184.204 17:55, 11 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Sequences to be fixed

Hi, Jagwar. Some entries from the English-Fijian Dictionary you used provided phrases of two or more Fijian words as translations for the English words. These phrases once here were linked word by word and separated with commas by the bot. These phrases should have been added either as one link each or composed of as many links as words but with no commas in between. I have collected most of them the way they currently are here and the way they should be (when two or more options are available, I have chosen the one it seems more sensible to me). I list them below in the hope you can load them easily in the conditional replacement section of your bot so it can replace the sequences on the left by the ones on the right in one single go of the bot. This would be a great saving of time because every line is in at least 7 pages and in more than 25 at most. If you couldn't do it for any reason I would appreciate if you let me know so that I could ask somebody else with a bot. Thanks in advance. Regards. --87.217.184.204 17:57, 13 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

• # [[tavu]], [[ni]], [[sisili]] should be # [[tavu ni sisili]]
• # [[vale]], [[ni]], [[yaqona]] should be # [[vale ni yaqona]]
• # [[baravi]], [[nuku]] should be # [[baravi nuku]]
• # [[kama]], [[tiko]] should be # [[kama tiko]]
• # [[i]], [[cake]], [[i]], [[dela]] should be # [[i cake]], [[i dela]]
• # [[noti]], [[ilavo]], [[pepa]] should be # [[noti]], [[ilavo pepa]]
• # [[i]], [[waqa]] should be # [[i waqa]]
• # [[mai]], [[valagi]] should be # [[mai valagi]]
• # [[i]], [[tai]] should be # [[i tai]]
• # [[ilakolako]], [[talei]] should be # [[ilakolako talei]]
• # [[kena]], [[vinaka]] should be # [[kena vinaka]]
• # [[kabani]], [[ni]], [[waqavuka]] should be # [[kabani ni waqavuka]]
• # [[tale]], [[ga]] should be # [[tale ga]]
• # [[dau]], [[tu]], [[ga]] should be # [[dau]], [[tu ga]]
• # [[i]], [[maliwa]], [[ni]] should be # [[i maliwa ni]]
• # [[dua]], [[tale]] should be # [[dua tale]]
• # [[lesu]], [[mai]] should be # [[lesu mai]]
• # [[i]], [[liu]] should be # [[i liu]]
• # [[se]], [[qai]], [[vuli]] should be # [[se qai vuli]]
• # [[e]], [[muri]] should be # [[e muri]]
• # [[i]], [[ra]] should be # [[i ra]]
• # [[i]], [[yasa]] should be # [[i yasa]]
• # [[vinaka]], [[duadua]] should be # [[vinaka duadua]]
• # [[sitoa]], [[no]], [[ivola]] should be # [[sitoa no ivola]]
• # [[kauta]], [[mai]] should be # [[kauta mai]]
• # [[vale]], [[ni]], [[lotu]] should be # [[vale ni lotu]]
• # [[lako]], [[mai]] should be # [[lako mai]]
• # [[luvequ]], [[yalewa]] should be # [[luvequ yalewa]]
• # [[lako]], [[tani]] should be # [[lako tani]]
• # [[sa]], [[bula]] should be # [[sa bula]]
• # [[ni]], [[sa]], [[yadra]] should be # [[ni sa yadra]]
• # [[drau]], [[ni]], [[ulu] should be # [[drau ni ulu]
• # [[vale]], [[ni]], [[kuro]] should be # [[vale ni kuro]]
• # [[vaka]], [[lailai]] should be # [[vaka lailai]]
• # [[sega]], [[ni]] should be # [[sega ni]]
• # [[dua]], [[tale]] should be # [[dua tale]]
• # [[vositi]], [[au]] should be # [[vositi]] [[au]]
• # [[yalo]], [[vinaka]], [[beka]], [[mada]] should be # [[yalo vinaka]], [[beka]], [[mada]]
• # [[vaka]], [[levu]] should be # [[vaka]] [[levu]]
• # [[vaka]], [[totolo]] should be # [[vaka totolo]]
• # [[koro]], [[ni]], [[vuli]] should be # [[koro]] [[ni]] [[vuli]]
• # [[laga]], [[sere]] should be # [[laga sere]]
• # [[tu]], [[cake]] should be # [[tu cake]]
• # [[gone]], [[vuli]] should be # [[gone vuli]]
• # [[ni]], [[mataka]] should be # [[ni mataka]]
• # [[e]], [[ra]] should be # [[e ra]]
• # [[moku]], [[siga]] should be # [[moku]] [[siga]]
• # [[vale]], [[ni]], [[yaqona]] should be # [[vale]] [[ni]] [[yaqona]]

Done --Jagwar 18:40, 15 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Great! Thanks a lot, Jagwar. --87.217.185.187 00:26, 16 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Tsy misy fisaorana... koa misaotra betsaka! --87.217.185.187 19:44, 16 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

Hi, again. In many entries of German words there are many links ending systematically with a comma, a space and two closing square brackets. Could you fix it with your bot turning that sequence just into two closing square brackets, please? If you cannot, please just let me know. Thanks. Regards. --87.217.184.209 19:00, 20 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

• , ]] should be ]]

RE :

This task is being done. There are also some other errors that I can not correct with my bot without errors (you will see them in German language section) ; so I let you (or someone else) do this, manually or not. Regards, --Jagwar 18:39, 21 Noveba 2011 (UTC) PS : I am really sorry for all those mistake my bot committed.

~270 links fixed in less than 10 minutes :) Thanks a lot, Jagwar. --87.217.184.209 19:19, 21 Noveba 2011 (UTC)

আদমি

Jagwar,

Please don't tell mee that this is a word in my mother tongue (Dutch). And I also doubt very, very seriously that its translation in Fidjian is dauloআদমি....

And yes there are more errors and no I am not going to waste my time on cleaning up your mess. STOP DOING THIS!!! Jcwf 01:03, 18 Veverueri 2012 (UTC)

Notification

Hello Jagwar. I just left here a note, as I think that the left that could have been done is to notify you when talking about you. You will find the on-going discussion here. Regards, -- Quentinv57 14:01, 21 Veverueri 2012 (UTC)

request

If you know the translations of the languages, please create templates such as template:-et-. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:34, 23 Okotova 2012 (UTC)